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Extraordinary Constitutional Convention 2017

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Aralunya
Libertarian Democracy
Abdoa
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Post by Libertarian Democracy Thu Nov 02, 2017 12:31 am

And with that, I do hereby reconvene this Convention. We will now begin 15 days of additional debate before we move on to voting.

Our first item of debate is the Rule Committee Report, submitted by Parliament Delegate Abdoa. Debate will last until November 5th. Same procedure as last time.
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Post by Libertarian Democracy Thu Nov 02, 2017 2:12 am

This report does not really change my positions, although it does bring to light several procedural conundrums that would need to be sorted out by Parliament if some of these proposals were passed. However, I do ask the Parliament Delegate if he could elaborate on the potential procedural effects of SO#2016-12 if the amendments were passed.
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Post by S:t Artica and the N.K. Fri Nov 03, 2017 12:24 pm

I do agree with the honorable LibDem, that further explanations regarding SO#2016-12 would be appreciated. However, other than that I feel that the report is clear and based upon good arguments.
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Post by Abdoa Mon Nov 06, 2017 3:34 am

I apologize to the Chair and my colleagues for my late response.

To clarify on the procedural effects of SO#2016-12:
-it explicitly refers to in-character and out-of-character actions as being distinct, without defining them, in discordance with the rest of the Constitution: Parliament would need to define those terms and possibly amend the Acts on Judicial Rights and Procedures and Regional Roleplay as a result of this passage.
-the use of a capital C in "commission" (Article 14) would interfere with both the Act on Parliamentary Commissions and Committees and the Act on Positional Commissions, by designating the term "commission" as one that applies exclusively to the instance mentioned in the Constitution. As this may seem a bit odd, I would like to point out that the Parliament (capital P) is one organ of governmental instances, and to create other organs named "Parliament" would be confusing and infringe on the use of the word Parliament as defined in the Constitution. Same goes with Temporary Tribunals, Cabinet, etc.
-Article 17 basically gives the Founder the right to do everything in the Union government that isn't directly partisan. This would invalidate the exclusive prerogative given to certain organs within the government, such as in Article 1 of the Act on General Debate. Also, for the same reasons, this creates possible inconsistencies within the Constitution itself, which could lead to a destabilization of what is considered constitutionally permissible in the laws passed by Parliament.
-Article 10, Subsection 1: This invalidates SO#2017-01, by removing the inferred power of the President to organize votes (by using the term "votes" in stead of the currently used "elections") while barring the Founder from calling votes on certain topics.

Also, the length and detail of this proposal removes a, pardon my saying, ridiculous amount of liberty from the Parliament to regulate the position of the Founder. It amounts to a power-grab by the Founder, ensuring that it is hard to remove certain of his/her privileges even if they are useless or badly executed, taking away the Parliament's vital duty to monitor and hold to account the only non-recallable official in the Union.
This would severely hamper the Parliament if it ever chooses to curtail any one of the Founder's powers, by obliging it to pass through the lengthy Constitutional Amendment process, where it can pass a simple law in the case of other officials, who can in any case be recalled.

All in all, this proposal, along with the similar SO#2017-64, would place an undue burden on Parliamentary procedure, both short-term (saving the important provisions of certain laws that could be invalidated) and long-term (forcing the Parliament to either change its procedures or have to take circuitous routes to get around them in legislation on the powers of the Founder).
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Post by Libertarian Democracy Mon Nov 06, 2017 10:43 am

Debate on this item has concluded. We will now move on to the next item of debate, the Development Committee Report, submitted by the Chair. Debate will last until November 10th.
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Post by Aralunya Wed Nov 08, 2017 10:53 am

Having read the Report submitted by the Development Chair, I concur with its conclusions. Also, given the hearings held in my Committee, I feel that it largely falls in line with the general consensus on the Amendments as proposed.
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Post by S:t Artica and the N.K. Wed Nov 08, 2017 6:32 pm

I agree with the statement presented by the Hon. Aralunya. The report does not change my position on the proposed amendments.
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Post by Libertarian Democracy Sun Nov 12, 2017 11:01 pm

My apologies for the delay; I had an extraordinarily busy week. Debate on this item has concluded, and we will now move on to the next and final item - the Management Committee Report, submitted by Parliament Delegate Aralunya. Debate will end on November 16th.
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Post by S:t Artica and the N.K. Thu Nov 16, 2017 6:25 pm

As I have taken part in committee I fully agree with it. I would also like to mention that I willing to answer questions regarding the report to the best of my ability. If they were to surface before the end of the debate.
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Post by Libertarian Democracy Fri Nov 17, 2017 9:33 pm

Debate has ended.  We will now proceed to the last item of Phase II, which is voting on amendments to the proposals.  There are two proposals that may be amended:

SO#2015-11 ("Reducing Constitutional Ambiguity"):
text:
amendments:

SO#2016-12 ("The Region’s Administrative Branch 2016"):
TEXT:
AMENDMENTS:

Please note that we are not currently voting on whether or not to adopt the proposals; simply on whether or not these two proposals should be amended.

Please format your ballot as such:
Code:
[b][u]SO#2015-11 Amendments:[/u][/b]
AYE: <list amendments you vote AYE for>
NAY: <list amendments you vote NAY for>
ABSTAIN: <list amendments you ABSTAIN for>

[b][u]SO#2016-12 Amendments:[/u][/b]
AYE: <list amendments you vote AYE for>
NAY: <list amendments you vote NAY for>
ABSTAIN: <list amendments you ABSTAIN for>

Please note that debate time is over, and this time is for voting only. Voting on amendments to proposals will conclude on 21 November 17.


Last edited by Libertarian Democracy on Sat Nov 18, 2017 7:06 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Post by Libertarian Democracy Sat Nov 18, 2017 1:50 am

SO#2015-11 Amendments:
AYE: I, II, IV, V
NAY: III
ABSTAIN:

SO#2016-12 Amendments:
AYE: I, II, III, IV, V, VI, VII, VIII, IX, X, XI
NAY:
ABSTAIN:


Last edited by Libertarian Democracy on Sat Nov 18, 2017 6:30 am; edited 1 time in total
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Post by Abdoa Sat Nov 18, 2017 3:42 am

SO#2015-11 Amendments:
AYE: I, II, III, IV, V
NAY: 
ABSTAIN: 

SO#2016-12 Amendments:
AYE: I, II, III, IV, V, VI, VII, VIII, IX, X, XI
NAY: 
ABSTAIN: 
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Post by Aralunya Sat Nov 18, 2017 9:59 am

SO#2015-11 Amendments:
AYE: I, II, III, IV, V
NAY:
ABSTAIN:

SO#2016-12 Amendments:
AYE: I, II, III, IV, V, VI, VII, VIII, IX, X, XI
NAY:
ABSTAIN:


Last edited by Aralunya on Sun Nov 19, 2017 11:03 am; edited 1 time in total
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Post by S:t Artica and the N.K. Sat Nov 18, 2017 6:35 pm

SO#2015-11 Amendments:
AYE: I, II, III, IV, V
NAY:
ABSTAIN:

SO#2016-12 Amendments:
AYE: I, II, III, IV, V, VI, VII, VIII, IX, X, XI
NAY:
ABSTAIN:
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Post by Libertarian Democracy Tue Nov 21, 2017 5:08 am

Voting is now over.  Here are the results:

SO#2015-11 Amendments:

AmendmentVotes FORVotes AGAINSTAbstentionsResult
I400PASSED
II400PASSED
III310PASSED
IV400PASSED
V400PASSED
SO#2016-12 Amendments:
AmendmentVotes FORVotes AGAINSTAbstentionsResult
I400PASSED
II400PASSED
III400PASSED
IV400PASSED
V400PASSED
VI400PASSED
VII400PASSED
VIII400PASSED
XI400PASSED
X400PASSED
XI400PASSED
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Post by Libertarian Democracy Tue Nov 21, 2017 5:37 am

With that, we now move on to Phase III - Voting.  This will last from 21 - 25 November 2017.

There is a special procedure.  In order for a proposal to pass and be sent to the Parliament, it must have the votes of at least 2/3 of the voting Delegates, and it must have the votes of at least one Cabinet Delegate, one Parliament Delegate, AND one Citizen Delegate.

Here are the final versions of all the proposals:

SO#2015-07 ("Deputy Prime Minister Act"):
SO#2015-11 ("Reducing Constitutional Ambiguity"):
SO#2016-09 ("Ending Limitations on Debate Numbers"):
SO#2017-21 ("Joint Appointment of the Minister of Jurisprudence Act"):
SO#2016-12 ("The Region’s Administrative Branch 2016"):
SO#2017-64 ("The 2017 Constitutional Amendment Act on the Administrative Branch"):
Vice President Amendment:

Please format your ballot as such:
Code:
[b]SO#2015-07:[/b] <AYE, NAY, or ABSTAIN>
[b]SO#2015-11:[/b] <AYE, NAY, or ABSTAIN>
[b]SO#2016-09:[/b] <AYE, NAY, or ABSTAIN>
[b]SO#2017-21:[/b] <AYE, NAY, or ABSTAIN>
[b]SO#2016-12:[/b] <AYE, NAY, or ABSTAIN>
[b]SO#2017-64:[/b] <AYE, NAY, or ABSTAIN>
[b]Vice President:[/b] <AYE, NAY, or ABSTAIN>
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Post by Libertarian Democracy Tue Nov 21, 2017 5:42 am

SO#2015-07: NAY
SO#2015-11: AYE
SO#2016-09: NAY
SO#2017-21: NAY
SO#2016-12: NAY
SO#2017-64: NAY
Vice President: AYE
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Post by Abdoa Tue Nov 21, 2017 5:51 am

I, Abdoa, as Parliamentary Representative to the 2017 ECC, do hereby cast my ballot as follows, in light of this lengthy debate, the committee reports that have been brought into it, and my personal convictions as I have already expressed them:

SO#2015-07: NAY
SO#2015-11: AYE
SO#2016-09: NAY
SO#2016-12: NAY
SO#2017-64: NAY
Vice President: AYE

edit: SO#2017-21: NAY


Last edited by Abdoa on Fri Nov 24, 2017 1:29 am; edited 1 time in total
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Post by Aralunya Tue Nov 21, 2017 7:34 am

b]SO#2015-07:[/b] NAY
SO#2015-11: AYE
SO#2016-09: NAY
SO#2017-21: NAY
SO#2016-12: NAY
SO#2017-64: NAY
Vice President: AYE
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Post by Nassau-Windsor Tue Nov 21, 2017 12:44 pm

I must state that, as I was not elected to be a Member of this Extraordinary Convention, under Article 2 of SO 2017-63, I am not permitted to vote on the issues.
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Post by S:t Artica and the N.K. Tue Nov 21, 2017 7:17 pm

SO#2015-07: NAY
SO#2015-11: AYE
SO#2016-09: NAY
SO#2017-21: NAY
SO#2016-12: NAY
SO#2017-64: NAY
Vice President: AYE
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Post by Hashkin Thu Nov 23, 2017 4:10 am

SO#2015-07: AYE
SO#2015-11: AYE
SO#2016-09: NAY
SO#2017-21: ABSTAIN
SO#2016-12: NAY
SO#2017-64: NAY
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Post by Libertarian Democracy Tue Nov 28, 2017 9:24 am

Voting on the proposals has concluded.  The results are as follows:
ProposalAYENAYABSTAINResult
SO#2015-07140FAILED
SO#2015-11500PASSED
SO#2016-09050FAILED
SO#2017-21041FAILED
SO#2016-12050FAILED
SO#2017-64050FAILED
Vice President400FAILED

Please note that, while the Vice President Amendment did have a majority of votes in favor, it did not meet the requirement that one Cabinet Delegate vote in favor of the proposal, and thus has failed.

The passed proposal will be forwarded to Parliament where they will complete the next steps in this special amendment process.

I thank you all for your participation. This was a major success, and one of the rare times that members of the Government and Legislature come together with Citizens to discuss regional policy, in this case The Constitution.

With that, I do adjourn this First Extraordinary Constitutional Convention.
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